We’re speaking about headless content material administration methods. What are they, and the way do they differ from extra conventional methods? Drew McLellan talks to Alvin Bryan to search out out.
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Drew: He’s a developer advocate with the content material administration platform firm, Contentful. Earlier than that, he was a lead engineer for Dow Jones within the Wall Avenue Journal and has had varied entrance finish roles. He’s very UX pushed and happiest when collaborating with designers and pushing boundaries as a workforce. And as of late, he’s studying rather a lot about DEVREL and loving it. So we all know he’s an skilled developer, however do you know he as soon as taught Catherine Zeta Jones to do a cartwheel? My Smashing pals, please welcome Alvin Brian. Hello Alvin, how are you?
Alvin: I’m smashing, thanks a lot for having me right here. It’s an honor.
Drew: Thanks for becoming a member of us. I wished to speak to you immediately about one of many key applied sciences that’s actually on the heart of so many initiatives, however maybe as of late doesn’t get the highlight shone on it so actually because perhaps it’s not so glamorous as front-end frameworks or any of those different issues. It’s content material administration methods. We’re all utilizing them, however I feel generally the dialogue isn’t there about it when it’s so necessary. I simply — earlier than we begin — wish to deal with the elephant within the room and that you just’re a developer advocate for Contentful, and I do know we have now a extremely savvy viewers right here at Smashing, they usually’d see proper by means of something that was a thinly veiled advert on your employer. So I simply wished to reassure the viewers at this level that this isn’t that, slightly it’s the truth that your work leads you to have some actually nice upstate information of the area and that’s why you’re the right visitor for this episode. That’s proper, isn’t it?
Alvin: Oh yeah. I feel that’s the distinction between a developer advocate and a salesman. I’m not right here to promote you something, I’m right here to assist builders, no matter that appears like. Not less than that is how we method DEVREL at Contentful. It varies, and this could possibly be a podcast episode by itself.
Drew: It could possibly be, couldn’t it? What’s developer relations? Is it a operate of gross sales? Is it a operate of promoting? Is it help? What’s it?
Alvin: Yeah.
Drew: So sure, that’s a complete can of worms. Simply to provide a little bit of background on me on this context, I’ve acquired loads of historical past with the content material administration area from years of constructing bespoke methods for shoppers after which distilling all that have down right into a CMS product, which I based in 2009 after which bought in 2021. All of the CMS options that I’ve developed have adopted this conventional mannequin of the CMS being all the platform that delivered your web site. So it’d be taking content material and taking templates and merging all that collectively to create HTML pages basically. Is that method to content material administration nonetheless a sound factor in 2023, do you assume?
Alvin: I feel it’s legitimate. Effectively, it’s legitimate relying on what you’re making an attempt to construct. Squarespace is, I’m fairly certain they’re doing nice. I’ve not checked out something, any numbers, however they’ve been doing nice for years and I’m certain they’ll proceed. So yeah, it’s positively a sound factor, however I feel for the type of place that will make use of a developer, that is probably not anymore.
Drew: It’s virtually that market from a improvement standpoint, it’s virtually like a solved downside, isn’t it? There are such a lot of good CMSs for rolling out, for instance, small web sites. I don’t know what the most recent stats on how a lot of the online is powered by WordPress, nevertheless it’s approaching half, isn’t it?
Alvin: Yeah. I imagine it saved rising as nicely, proper?
Drew: Proper.
Alvin: Yeah, so positively, it’s a factor for certain.
Drew: I feel we’re right here immediately to speak about headless CMS, which after all is a distinct method to the identical downside. I feel most of us may have heard of Contentful in some capability over the previous few years as one of many rising stars within the headless CMS area. And you actually can’t discuss content material administration. You’ll be able to’t have a content material administration dialogue as of late with out headless being a consider that dialogue. We talked about WordPress, however even WordPress has a headless mode. Drupal have what they name a coupled mode, which I feel is simply the identical factor. So getting right down to brass tacks, what will we imply once we say a headless CMS? What kind of downside is it fixing for us?
Alvin: The issue it’s fixing is, it’s making a distinction between what the CMS manages and what you get out of it. With the standard CMS, you’re tied to a web site or a web page the place you’re made a web page on WordPress and ended up being a web page in your web site. And it’s the method that, as we stated earlier than, that is what Squarespace does, that is what all of them do. With headless, you handle your content material and also you retrieve that content material with an API name, so the best way that appears in your web site is totally decoupled. And this solves loads of issues, particularly with larger corporations. So you may think about, with Contentful, one in all our greatest shoppers is Ikea, and you’ll think about that they don’t simply have content material on their web site, they’ve bodily catalogs, they’ve adverts on the aspect of the street, so all of that. You actually have to interrupt away from this previous, one web page within the CMS equals one web page on the web site.
Drew: So you find yourself extra with a multipurpose repository of content material with an API that you would be able to then entry it. So if you happen to’re Ikea, you may pull the identical product description into your cell app and in your web site and into, what, any quantity. So yeah, I suppose it’s decoupling, isn’t it? It’s, slightly than saying, this content material is being produced on this HTML web page, it’s saying, this can be a system for managing content material and right here is an API for getting at that content material and utilizing it nevertheless you need. So it sounds prefer it makes a complete bunch of issues, particularly across the reusing content material area, it makes that rather a lot simpler. Are there any issues, do you assume, that utilizing this method make tougher?
Alvin: Effectively, it’s the time to iteration, as a result of relying on how nicely your system is ready up, you may go round this. However the fantastic thing about it, what we builders love about it’s, we have now management. What different folks within the group are inclined to hate is that we have now management. And because of this, if you would like a model new part in your web site whenever you want designer to design it, a developer to make it work, you may work round it with templates and different issues that we used to do. However normally, this could be a factor the place folks could be… I can simply spin up a very new part from scratch. Once more, it may be, however there would have to be one thing that’s been arrange beforehand.
Drew: Proper. So you may put the content material into the system, however you want one thing then to eat it in a focused approach to make use of it. Yeah, in order that, as you say, the iteration velocity could possibly be slower. One factor that I generally see on-line is, folks say, “Oh, if you happen to use a headless CMS, it’s horrible for web optimization.” However with my software program engineering hat on, that appears like a symptom of 1 doable implementation of utilizing a headless CMS, and it’s not inherent to the general resolution, is it? You would be merging this content material right into a static web site offline after which publishing it, or when folks take a purely shopper aspect single web page app method to utilizing that content material, which may have web optimization implications and that perhaps be is the type of naive preliminary implementation that somebody would possibly go together with.
Drew: However sure, it’s humorous how typically that crops up virtually, type of one in all these myths that drifts round folks with out perhaps totally understanding the implications, simply repeat it. One factor that Contentful talks about in loads of their supplies is composable content material. What does that imply? What are we speaking about with composable content material?
Alvin: It’s the flamboyant new 12-23 factor, isn’t it? Yeah, simply to come back again on the web optimization bit, I feel, yeah, as you stated, it’s simply, something that Google consumes is, on the finish of the day, an HTML tag. It’s no completely different to the P tag, which you’ll use to show no matter. So it’s additionally as much as you, the developer, to just remember to create the OG tags that your content material is there virtually so the engines can crawl it. So it’s nothing… The headless supplier will simply provide you with an API, you are able to do no matter you need with it. To return to the composable factor now, yeah, so much more folks have began to maneuver to it. You hear us speaking about it, you hear a few of our opponents discuss it, and that Defy can also be doubling down with the acquisition of Gatsby, for instance.
Alvin: The concept is to go headless CMS plus, proper? So with headless you say, “Oh, I’ve this one API that takes care of all my content material.” However now, what if you happen to may plug different issues to this API? What if you happen to may say, “Oh, I would like…” I’m simply making stuff up right here, however what if I wish to join my slack to it? What if we have now a climate app or one thing like that? Some other varieties of dynamic information that we have to mix with our content material to have this one API that provides us every thing. And it’s the thought of, once more, you’re composing what you want together with your headless CMS. And that for us, that appears like an ecosystem of apps, which means you may prolong Contentful with completely different apps, which could possibly be translation, it’s 2023, so it could possibly be GPT, could possibly be the rest. In order that’s the thought. Your headless CMS additionally integrates with different information suppliers.
Drew: So it turns into like an aggregator of different content material. So in addition to having perhaps a content material modifying workforce creating content material, you may additionally be pulling stuff in out of your Instagram feed.
Alvin: Yeah, precisely.
Drew: Or say, a dynamic feed from a 3rd get together supplier after which making that each one out there beneath one API to all of your completely different shoppers. Okay, nicely that type of is sensible. I feel that is sensible.
Alvin: Particularly with Instagram, we’ve all seen the horrible Instagram embeds or the Twitter ones. Twitter API is a factor of the previous now however anyway, simply to provide you an instance of, you’ve gotten these horrible embeds, and what if you happen to may get that information from the headless CMS as nicely after which render it statically? That makes much more sense.
Drew: Okay. So sure, it’s simply an aggregation operate on high of the usual in addition to being the supply of reality on your personal content material.
Alvin: Precisely.
Drew: Additionally then brings in different items of content material. Now, I’ve personally at all times been enthusiastic about proudly owning my very own information the place I can, and I’d normally choose a self-hosted resolution for one thing slightly than a service, given the selection. Though I’ve mellowed through the years. The trade-offs I make now are very completely different from what I might made prior to now. However with a headless CMS being API pushed, it looks as if you’ve acquired a bit extra flexibility there as to the place it’s hosted. So that you don’t essentially want the CMS and the web site to reside on the identical server or in the identical atmosphere. You would separate these out. So, is there added complexity there or is that a chance for simplification? Have you ever any ideas?
Alvin: Yeah, for certain. It relies upon, as a result of every thing is from that one API. Relying in your wants, which may get loads of visitors, which can make self-hosting an issue. As you stated, you’ve mellowed as some type of into self-hosting as a result of it’s change into simpler to only arrange one thing within the cloud, whereas managing servers, has that essentially acquired simpler? Tech has modified, nevertheless it’s nonetheless annoying.
Drew: It’s simply acquired sophisticated in numerous instructions.
Alvin: Proper. Yeah. So there are self-hosted headless CMSs. We’re not one in all them as a result of, once more, we have a tendency to focus on larger shoppers which have, once more, these wants for these APIs, and our CDN takes in, it’s within the billions of requests monthly. So we’re fairly for prime visitors stuff. However yeah, there are answers you may set up, Strappy is one in all them that’s self-hosted. You’ll be able to set up it by yourself server, and this offers you, as you stated, headless CMS. You’ll personal your content material, you’ll get the API. However the disadvantage with that’s, clearly, if you happen to get a ton of visitors, then it’ll go to your server that you just won’t scale otherwise you won’t wish to pay for it to scale that but. That’s the one true — nevertheless it’s doable for certain.
Drew: And I suppose you’ve acquired to handle it then if it’s in your finish, you’ve acquired to maintain it up to date, preserve it operating, preserve it backed up. I suppose the selections you’d make for a small neighborhood web site can be completely different for the belongings you’d make if you happen to have been Ikea. IKEA most likely isn’t going to be operating Strappy on a VPS. That’s most likely not a superb resolution for them in loads of methods. So what are the issues you need to weigh up when selecting a headless CMS resolution? What are the issues to be searching for which might be maybe completely different from what we’re used to evaluating for a conventional CMS?
Alvin: I feel it relies upon… Effectively, as a developer, you’ll know what you’ll be coding so you may take a look at the API and what it appears like, whether or not you prefer it or not. How simple, does it help GraphQL? Everybody does as of late, however stuff like that. Then I feel it is determined by the people who find themselves going to spend so much of time within the CMS workforce. As a lot because it’s nice for me if I just like the API, but when the people who find themselves going to put in writing within the CMS hate it, then it’s most likely not the precise selection. So I positively assume you most likely wish to contain these folks to the choice, proper? As a result of they’re going to be those spending time. For us, we wish to make it possible for we will retrieve every thing we would like from the API as builders, however positively desires your weblog editor to provide the inexperienced mild and ensure it has every thing they want.
Drew: Yeah, you talked about the API turns into actually necessary, and I’ve seen headless CMSs with Relaxation APIs with GraphQL, after which varied options have SDKs that you would be able to import into your challenge that provide you with a language native means of interacting. Is there something you’ll, from a improvement standpoint, that will be helpful to look out for when evaluating availability of SDKs or varieties of APIs?
Alvin: Yeah, for certain, if it’s one thing you want. On the finish of the day, the fantastic thing about it, is it’s nonetheless an API name. So any language beneath the solar will help that, hopefully. Yeah, so it’s additionally as much as you, proper? Would you like Python native SDK the place it’s identical to, okay, I’m typing three traces of code and I do shopper, get entry, get this concept no matter, or get these entries which might be of this content material sort, they like that grade. However if you happen to’re the type of one who’s like, “Nope, I’m going to have full management,” it additionally goes again to what you stated about proudly owning your information. The issue with counting on this on an SDK is what occurs when there’s a safety downside, versus if it’s you and also you’re simply utilizing the naked bones HTTP shopper in your language, that there’s much less threat. So it additionally is determined by the type of challenge you’re engaged on.
Drew: You talked in regards to the person interface side, and it’s acquired to be one of many large components, isn’t it? Whenever you’ve acquired folks getting into content material, creating content material in a system and managing it, the person interface that’s offered is a giant issue there and the way the information is… There are all types of various approaches aren’t there? In content material administration to the way you handle information, whether or not it’s only one large wizzywig block of junk, or whether or not issues are damaged right down to a granular stage for structured content material. Presuming that the majority headless options nonetheless have some type of person interface for modifying content material to get you began, does that mirror what you’ve seen within the market?
Alvin: Yeah, everybody has a wizzywig. Some have various levels of help with Markdown, and once more, the ecosystem of apps that I used to be speaking about. So increasingly more gamers are having their very own, and this helps additionally to increase it so it may assist with this dialogue of, if you happen to’re speaking to a weblog editor, it’s like, “Ah, it’s type of there, however I actually want there was a area that might do X,” and you would both prolong it your self or simply search for one other resolution. However yeah, completely different groups have various wants. And it could possibly be small issues, like for instance, scheduling. Like, oh, I would like to have the ability to have this marketing campaign going, I wish to make it possible for from now, I can make certain a weblog submit goes on the Monday, one other one goes on a Tuesday and one other one goes on the Thursday. And if the interface for this can be a nightmare versus one thing else that you just won’t want. It relies upon, proper? It’s at all times… However yeah, it’s essential. Completely.
Drew: And I suppose, if you happen to’ve acquired very particular wants, in principle, you would use a headless CMS purely as a content material engine and have your individual mechanisms for getting information in, and principally write your individual interface for writing into that system as nicely. Is a proper interface one thing that everybody helps? Or is {that a} characteristic to look out for when evaluating?
Alvin: I wouldn’t say… I can’t bear in mind if there’s one specifically who doesn’t, however I do know we positively do because-
Drew: It’s a really broad query. Along with your excessive information of one hundred percent of {the marketplace}, does each single one…
Alvin: Proper. Yeah, I do know we help it as a result of, it’s additionally, I feel, with DEVREL, you find yourself spending much more time in your product versus the others, you are inclined to have a superb… And that is the place it’s completely different to gross sales, what we have been saying earlier. When somebody comes as much as me and say, “Oh, what’s the one characteristic that’s completely different?” I at all times say, “Effectively, it relies upon what you want.” What’s the one motive I may select Contentful? And that is the place we very a lot differ from gross sales, which we’ll have an inventory proper there within the prepared. After which we’ll be like, “Oh, for certain you need to select us as a result of A, B, C, D.” And for us as developer, is extra like, “What do you want? What scale do you’ve gotten? What do you want engaged on? How large is your workforce?” It’s a distinct query. However so far as writing, having an API that works each methods, we positively help it, and I might be shocked if others don’t.
Drew: It turns into fairly essential, doesn’t it? As a result of only a few initiatives comparatively begin with nothing. Most individuals have gotten some type of system in place earlier than, and taking the information that you just’ve already acquired and migrating it into a brand new system could be a main challenge, and a deal breaker for lots of larger use instances. You’ve acquired to have the ability to get information in. So having a CMS that has an API that you would be able to write code and interface with regardless of the earlier system is, get that code into an honest form, after which inject it into the headless system, that’s a significant benefit, isn’t it?
Alvin: And you’ll assume by way of reproducibility as nicely, as a result of migration is nice, nevertheless it’s even higher if you happen to can say, “Oh, that is the precise script that I ran for migration versus simply this assortment of random instructions that I did on my machine.” And it’s like, oh, beta’s over now. It’s a lot better to say, “Oh, we have now this very outlined means of remodeling this information from this form to that form.” And having an API helps you with this for certain.
Drew: Hopefully gone are the times when you’ve gotten two browser home windows open and duplicate and paste content material from one kind to a different. I’ve actually been there within the distant previous. However yeah, flew these days behind us. Is there something that has significantly caught your consideration?
Alvin: I feel the composable factor is, it’s been occurring for just a few months now, however it’s positively a shift. Everyone seems to be beginning to assume, oh, perhaps there’s extra than simply being the headless CMS resolution. And clearly AI, which each and every market is speaking about now. But it surely’s additionally content material, and particularly written content material is, the primary, proper now, at the least, the very first industries to be impacted by it. So how do you combine it? How do you make certain… How do you account for issues like attribution? These are discussions which might be occurring within the content material area for certain, positively. Not less than proper now, it’s the primary trade that it’s actually attacking.
Drew: Sure. Written content material and issues like pictures, there’s Photoshop, new model of Photoshop has come out this final couple of weeks that has utterly generative fill in it, which is superb. So it’s a courageous new world, isn’t it? From a content material standpoint explicit, it’s a courageous new world. And also you talked about attribution, and that’s a minefield as nicely, isn’t it? Determining how all that works when content material has been generated from a mannequin educated on-
Alvin: We don’t know what.
Drew: Yeah, who is aware of what. So how are you going to attribute stuff? It’s going to be a really attention-grabbing time, going ahead, determining how we do this. Is there the rest that, say I’m planning a challenge, I’m going to make use of a headless CMS. I’ve determined perhaps I’m going to make use of Contentful, and I’m planning out this challenge. What ought to I be contemplating? What lies forward of me? What ought to I be worrying about? What’s there that I must be serious about? On embarking on this?
Alvin: I feel it’s your content material mannequin. So it’s the very first thing to get proper. We see generally folks actually over-complicating issues and having content material mannequin for, if you happen to consider an index web page, having a separate content material for a carousel, after which there could also be a river sort content material. Are you aware what I imply? When it comes to the place you’ve gotten a picture on the left and textual content on the precise, after which it follows by picture on the precise textual content on the left. So you may actually over-complicate issues the place it’s content material mannequin. You would assume, “Oh, rivers may be very completely different to a Carousel,” for instance. However then you may assume, “Oh wait, no, is it simply a picture with textual content with it?” After which on the finish of the day, oh yeah it’s. So it’s stuff like that the place it’s simple to over-engineer issues, after which having content material fashions which might be Carousel homepage one, after which about web page Carousel two, and it’s like, nicely, no, these aren’t the identical factor.
Alvin: So it’s making an attempt to assume within the summary means, even when it may be extra code initially since you’re constructing extra flexibility into every of the content material fashions, the content material sorts as nicely. However in the long term, that might prevent.
Drew: So it’s about, I suppose, considering of what content material you’ve acquired and what differing types it falls into?
Alvin: And what you might need sooner or later, which is sophisticated for certain as a result of you may by no means know. However making an attempt to construct flexibility of, by way of making an attempt to assume outdoors the field that, for instance, what if there was a caption on this river? What if one of many pictures was truly a video? These little tweaks like this, which it would prevent loads of time in the long term, as a result of it would forestall you from having to rethink every thing later.
Drew: From a improvement standpoint, from a developer standpoint, one factor that at all times provides me reassurance in my work is having a superb take a look at suite that you would be able to run to make it possible for issues aren’t damaged earlier than you deploy.
Alvin: Yeah.
Drew: Is there something by way of testing round content material that we may make use of?
Alvin: For certain. It’s an API too. So if you happen to can consider utilizing one thing like Storybook, the place you’ve gotten your completely different elements, you would say, proper, so, as we stated about, this can be a generic element. What occurs if there’s three situations of it? What occurs if there’s 5? What occurs once more, if one in all them is a video? It’s this entire, the meme, cue engineer walks right into a bar, orders zero beers, orders a thousand beers, stuff like that.
Drew: What’s an elephant?
Alvin: Proper. Yeah, precisely. And that sort of factor. You’ll be able to construct into take a look at suite and see what occurs.
Drew: Sure, that’s fairly attention-grabbing. I suppose, once more, it’s the decoupling of issues that makes that actually simple. And I suppose then, if you happen to’re operating that Storybook, you may then run it by means of some visible regression testing and spot breakages or what have you ever. Yeah, that’s actually fascinating.
Alvin: You’ll be able to consider human errors too, proper? Generally whenever you arrange every thing, you’re like, “Oh yeah, after all they’re going to place a date on the article,” however then generally you neglect or generally there’s one thing else and also you understand, oh, that the date you printed is completely different than the date you had within the article, no matter. Or one of many writer’s Twitter doesn’t work. Stuff like that’s, it’s writing your take a look at suite is an effective time to consider these edge instances, proper? Sorry, what was your query?
Drew: Sure, no, I used to be simply jabbering on. The truth is, I bear in mind years in the past writing a type of system for running a blog, and each one of many absolute required fields was a title for the weblog submit. Once I created it, I by no means even questioned, would a title be non-compulsory? A title is key. Each weblog submit has a title.
Alvin: H1.
Drew: Proper. And then you definitely use that to generate the great slug for the URL and all these types of issues. And in listings, it’s the title that seems. After which Tumblr got here out, and you would create all types of posts on that, and also you didn’t even want a date or a title.
Alvin: Oh yeah.
Drew: What insanity is that this? But it surely’s such as you’re saying, it’s considering outdoors of the field and serious about the several types of content material that you just might need. And it seems that elementary assumption that I made early on in that system, that we completely one hundred percent at all times had a title, grew to become a limitation of what we may do with the system, as a result of then when content material got here alongside that didn’t have a title, I used to be stuffed.
Alvin: Yeah, Instagram is one other instance. Or as we stated, the wonderful thing about headless is that it may go anyplace, however if you happen to’re additionally planning stuff that’s written in Contentful, however that may go in your web site, once more, your catalog, but in addition on Instagram, we have now this nice promotion this week for half worth of no matter. On Instagram, which may simply be the picture and nothing else, and the outline or one thing else. Yeah. Otherwise you wish to make certain, positively don’t pull the hashtag into the weblog, stuff like that.
Drew: Sure. Yeah, and I suppose simply serious about Instagram and utilizing content material in that means, having this API together with your content material opens up all types of potentialities for producing pictures. You would pull the content material and render textual content onto a picture and submit it to Instagram and do all that type of issues, that imagining doing that with a conventional CMS would simply be… It’d be a flight of fancy, it’d be troublesome. You’d be preventing in opposition to the system slightly than working with it.
Alvin: Yeah. And that is the place different options, as I stated, scheduling for instance, could be crucial, as a result of you may say, I wish to make it possible for each time this marketing campaign launches, we even have the Instagram stuff going out, that are once more, these pictures generated from the brand new publish within the CMS, and that is the place the CMS itself can have a scheduler, you should use Zapier or you should use Zapier to seize it and run a script that may then generate the picture. You are able to do all of this in a Chrome job someplace. It relies upon, however that is the place these options change into necessary.
Drew: Your content material then simply sits as one piece in a giant chain of loosely joined parts which might be delivering your varied digital merchandise or what have you ever onto your clients.
Alvin: And the composable stuff is about this being much less free, is to be sure to have some type of management that’s outlined, proper? That’s not like, oh, there’s this Chrome job right here and this app right here, and it’s all duct tape.
Drew: Sure. So yeah, it provides you a stage of management and probably then, high quality management or moderation or any of these steps that you just would possibly wish to put in between slightly than simply… As a result of it could be doable to federate content material in a front-end JavaScript app, you would do this, however then you definitely’re lacking that potential gate-keeping or any of these steps that you just would possibly wish to put in, that having a platform that does it for you or permits that as a characteristic. Sounds tremendous helpful. So we’ve been studying all about headless CMSs immediately. What have you ever been studying about currently, Alvin?
Alvin: I used to be on net rush final week, so I did loads of work with Astro, the completely different net framework. It’s been out for a bit, however since 2.0, I really feel like they’ve actually stepped on the fuel and began releasing so many issues. So I’ve actually been wanting into it, and it’s nice. I’ve a weblog submit popping out. However yeah, I’ve been wanting on the docs and studying rather a lot about all the brand new options, references, that are superb. For those who’ve needed to cope with Markdown earlier than and the entire sort security that they’ve added to Markdown, it’s actually attention-grabbing. And the truth that they help all of the frameworks is simply even higher. So yeah, I’ve been studying rather a lot about Astro lately.
Drew: That’s nice. I feel we did an episode on Astro, perhaps a few years in the past now, so maybe it’s time that the Smashing Podcast Revisited.
Alvin: Yeah, there’s loads of new stuff that got here out
Drew: That’s superb. For those who, pricey Listener, wish to hear extra from Alvin, yow will discover his private web site with hyperlinks to his varied initiatives and social profiles at alvin.codes. Thanks for becoming a member of us immediately, Alvin. Do you’ve gotten any parting phrases?
Alvin: No, thanks for having me. I’ve been a reader of Smashing Magazine for a very long time. My first article, I feel, got here out final 12 months, which was additionally a fantastic honor. And yeah, thanks a lot for having me.
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