Wednesday, March 15, 2023
HomeRuby On RailsThe Bike Shed: 364: Constructive vs Predicative Information

The Bike Shed: 364: Constructive vs Predicative Information

Stephanie and Joël attended RubyConf Mini, and each spoke there. They focus on takeaways and highlights from the convention.

The core thought for this episode is defined on this article: Constructive vs. Predicative Information. This got here up not too long ago in a dialog at thoughtbot about designing a database schema and what constraints could possibly be encoded within the schema straight versus needing some type of set off or Rails validation to cowl it.

This episode is dropped at you by Airbrake. Go to Frictionless error monitoring and efficiency perception to your app stack.

RubyConf Mini
Episode on CFP – The Bike Shed 352: Case Expressions
Podcast panel: The Ruby on Rails Podcast Episode 446: I am Giving A Speak on Thursday
Slides for FP discuss: Practical Programming for Enjoyable and Revenue!!
Episode on language: The Bike Shed – 356: The Worth of Specialised Vocabulary
Constructive vs. Predicative knowledge
Keep away from the Three-state Boolean Downside


JOËL: Howdy and welcome to a different episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your mates at thoughtbot about growing nice software program. I am Joël Quenneville.

STEPHANIE: And I am Stephanie Minn. And collectively, we’re right here to share a little bit of what we have realized alongside the best way.

JOËL: So one thing that is very current in each of our worlds has been that each you and I, Stephanie, attended RubyConf Mini, and we each spoke there. What are a few of your takeaways or highlights from the convention?

STEPHANIE: Seeing you in individual was undoubtedly a spotlight. I actually loved that. As a result of we’re working remotely, I do not, , get to be in an workplace with you daily. And it was actually superior to hang around with you, I feel, for the primary time as co-hosts of the podcast. And we each, I feel, met some folks on the convention too that had been listeners. And it was actually superior to share that have with you.

JOËL: I had the fascinating expertise of a number of individuals who instructed me they acknowledged me by my voice, which I feel is a standard factor for podcasters, however as a brand new host, I used to be stunned by that.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, that is bizarre. As a podcast listener, too, I undoubtedly know precisely what you are speaking about the place it is like, oh yeah, I can determine somebody by their voice. However to then be that individual that individuals can acknowledge is fairly bizarre.

I additionally actually loved being an viewers member of the podcast panel that you’re on on the convention with different podcast of us. It was moderated by Brittany Martin. And yeah, I simply thought you represented The Bike Shed rather well and spoke for each of us about podcasting in a method that I actually appreciated.

JOËL: And for any of our listeners who weren’t in a position to be there in individual, Brittany has revealed that episode as a podcast, and we’ll hyperlink to it within the present notes.

STEPHANIE: One other factor I actually preferred about RubyConf Mini was the smaller scale. I feel it was about 150 or so attendees, which felt very completely different from conventional Ruby Central conferences with a number of lots of of individuals. I heard quite a bit from people there that they actually preferred the regional side of it, the intimacy of the smaller convention.

I feel I obtained extra of a chance to run into folks that I might met on the convention over the following few days. And there was, yeah, undoubtedly a way of tighter knit group there, , once you meet somebody, and then you definately stumble upon them on the best way into a chat, after which you possibly can ask how their day was going and any highlights that they’d. And yeah, I assume I have never actually attended a convention that measurement earlier than, and in order that felt like a really particular expertise for me.

JOËL: I 100% agree. I feel the smaller format undoubtedly makes it slightly bit extra intimate, makes it a lot simpler, I feel, to construct a few of these social connections, to fulfill with folks, and to have some good conversations. I feel the format of the convention as effectively favored that. There have been, I feel, bigger breaks between talks that inspired folks to hang around and discuss. And, as you stated, as a result of it is smaller, you additionally get to see the identical folks over the course of some completely different breaks as an alternative of being like, oh, I met a stranger on the morning of day one, after which within the afternoon, I met one other stranger. And it is simply consistently introducing your self.

One factor that was actually fascinating to me is the expertise of being a speaker could be very completely different than simply attending. As a speaker, you get to go to the speaker dinner and join with loads of the opposite audio system there. A few of them could be quote, unquote “well-known folks” that you simply’re not fairly comfy simply strolling as much as and introducing your self. However within the smaller dinner, you simply end up sitting subsequent to them and having fun with some meals or a drink and getting conversations.

It is also a lot simpler to have folks come as much as you in the course of the convention. Since you’re a speaker, folks will come and discuss to you. So if you happen to are usually slightly bit extra introverted, so long as you will get over your concern of being on stage and public talking, it really makes social connection interplay a lot simpler to be a speaker. I’d advocate to any of our listeners who had been questioning how can I get extra out of a convention? How can I get higher connections, higher conversations? Think about being a speaker.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, completely. We have talked about this earlier than; I feel once we chatted about writing our CFPs for this convention that talking does not should be a very large, scary factor, however everybody has one thing to say. I feel we had talked about in earlier episodes that your discuss subject got here out of only a dialogue that you simply had internally, and also you had been like, wow, enumerables are so cool, like, let me dig deeper into them and simply share what I realized. So I completely advocate it.

And this convention was my first in real-life talking alternative as effectively, and that felt tremendous completely different from my expertise final time doing it just about, , speaking about how a lot I really like that sense of group on a regular basis. However it actually felt true for me this time round, the place I might see the viewers react to the issues I used to be saying, like, perhaps go off the cuff slightly bit.

After which yeah, on the finish, having folks come as much as me was actually superior to simply discuss pairing, which is what I spoke about, and simply share our experiences. They usually requested what I considered some issues, and it was actually cool to simply be capable of unfold that data round. And one factor I observed you probably did quite a bit was come as much as audio system after they wrapped up their talks. You had been virtually at all times the primary individual to stand up and congratulate them and simply get the ball rolling on following up on the issues they talked about. Is that one thing that you simply actually get pleasure from doing or discover notably priceless as an viewers member or speaker?

JOËL: Sure, each. I feel, as a speaker, it is actually validating to have folks come as much as you after the discuss and both simply let you know they preferred the discuss or ask a query. I typically do not love to do simply open questions after a chat from the viewers as a result of then you definately get the traditional; that is extra of a remark than a query or individuals who will let you know that you simply had a typo on one among your code slides. Like, none of that’s helpful to anybody.

So, if you happen to’re actually , come discuss to me afterwards. After which that really makes me really feel like my discuss linked with folks, and other people had been paying consideration, folks loved it, folks had been studying. So I attempt to pay that ahead as effectively for talks that I listened to, go as much as the speaker, and inform them one factor that I appreciated concerning the discuss or a factor that I realized, or one thing that obtained me excited of their content material.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I am certain that it’s extremely appreciated. And it additionally breaks the awkward silence on the finish when the speaker finishes and other people aren’t certain if it is okay for them to stand up and begin shifting round. Yeah, I assumed that was a very good technique to type of simply encourage folks to start out chatting with one another and shifting into these break occasions that we talked about earlier, these alternatives to socialize.

JOËL: One other factor that I feel is actually enjoyable that you are able to do at in-person conferences, and I do know you had been doing it quite a bit, goes to see the talks of pals and colleagues and sitting within the entrance row and simply being there to cheer them on and encourage them. Once more, I feel that makes an enormous distinction when you find yourself on stage, and also you see these people who find themselves your mates and colleagues there to assist you. It offers you that enhance of confidence. And once you’re there within the viewers, it is enjoyable to cheer on any person else.

STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. You gave me loads of thumbs-ups throughout my discuss, and I actually appreciated that. [laughs] So I am curious if there have been any talks that stood out to you that you simply obtained to see.

JOËL: And I used to be actually impressed by your discuss, pair programming. I feel there are loads of issues that I can take from that to enhance the best way I pair. I used to be additionally impressed by Aji’s discuss, Aji Slater, on automating handbook duties that it’s important to do in an iterative method. That one actually hit house as a result of, on my present mission, I’ve been doing loads of handbook issues. And I simply have random snippets of code, like, some shell script traces or Ruby console traces, that I copy-paste out of Slack conversations as a result of I’ve shared them with different people who find themselves doing comparable work.

And I noticed that loads of his recommendation would apply to the work that I am doing and the way that might actually make issues higher. In order that was a type of talks I used to be listening to, and I used to be like, oh, what? Monday morning, once I return to my mission, that is one thing that I will begin doing. That is one thing I will change in the best way I do my day-to-day work.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, completely. I’ve so many duties that I wish to get automated, and assume that someday I’ll magically have extra time in my schedule to get to it. However I preferred that his discuss gave fairly concrete methods for baking it into your common, such as you stated, day-to-day workflow, and that lowers the activation vitality to getting them accomplished. After which these issues will be iterated on and will finally turn into, in a super world, a fully-fledged characteristic that you simply put collectively from doing these repetitive duties. And yeah, they supply loads of worth not simply to you however can finally present worth to your co-workers after which even your customers sooner or later.

JOËL: Have been there any talks that stood out for you?

STEPHANIE: One discuss that I actually loved was Jenny Shih’s about Practical Programming for Enjoyable and Revenue. I’ve attended loads of purposeful programming talks throughout the Ruby realm, at the least to attempt to get a greater sense of the way it can apply to my work and the languages and paradigms that I exploit. And truthfully, what I preferred about it was that it did not get too within the weeds about purposeful programming. What she did was present psychological fashions for understanding the paradigm that I feel was car for understanding issues very typically.

And, for me, like,¬¬ a chat, it is actually arduous to concentrate to traces of code and to learn code on the fly whereas individuals are presenting. For me, that’s simply not how I wish to devour that data. And so she supplied themes and, like I stated, these psychological fashions, which I do know you actually like to make use of quite a bit too in instructing folks new ideas. For me, I did not totally be taught what a monad was, as soon as once more, however at the least having that repeated publicity to these foundational elements, I feel, will finally lead me to have the ability to grok these issues slightly extra comprehensively the following time I see it or at any time when I resolve to dig deeper.

JOËL: What was a psychological mannequin that was shared that linked with you notably?

STEPHANIE: So one of many major psychological fashions that she shared was enthusiastic about a program when it comes to these three dimensions: worth, conduct, and time. She had a pleasant slide that confirmed the distinction between the object-oriented paradigm, the place worth and conduct are contained by objects, the place time is type of inherently wrapped up in these objects that maintain details about the state by means of values and conduct. Whereas in her purposeful programming instance, these three dimensions had been a bit separate. And I discovered that distinction to be actually useful in separating issues that felt very implicit earlier than, but it surely was good to see them damaged out into very clear ideas when it comes to constructing blocks of a program.

JOËL: So it is useful then when considering…once you take a look at code, if you happen to can give it some thought in these three completely different dimensions to assist take into consideration, am I taking a purposeful or different strategy on this specific dimension when working with this code?

STEPHANIE: Yeah, precisely. I feel it additionally gave me extra of a vocabulary to explain the professionals and cons of every and a lens of enthusiastic about which I would wish to select for the actual downside at hand.

JOËL: So that you talked about there is a visible for these three dimensions from the slides. Are these slides publicly out there?

STEPHANIE: They’re. I’ll hyperlink to them within the present notes.

JOËL: So all of those talks had been recorded. They don’t seem to be but out there to the general public, however I feel the plan is to publish them on YouTube someday within the new 12 months, so which means most likely January 2023. And an enormous shout out to the AV crew and everybody who’s concerned in recording these.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I’m undoubtedly searching for a hyperlink to my discuss so I can ship it to my mother. I additionally needed to provide slightly shout-out to the organizers of RubyConf Mini: Jemma Issroff, Emily Samp, and Andy Croll.

JOËL: Woo!

STEPHANIE: They placed on only a actually superior convention, and I really feel very grateful that I obtained an opportunity to attend with you, Joël.

JOËL: It was undoubtedly a pleasant expertise.

STEPHANIE: Pleasant. That is a reference to Joël’s discuss for these of you who’re listening.


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JOËL: Getting back from the convention, I not too long ago had a very fascinating dialog with another colleagues at thoughtbot. We had been a database schema for a brand new software and speaking about a number of the trade-offs concerned in how that schema is structured, so what tables we wish to have. Will we wish to have indexes? Issues like that. And notably round a number of the assumptions are enterprise guidelines that may come into play.

So we’re …we would drawn out this Entity Relationship Diagram (ERD). In it, we’re all of the tables, and one thing that comes up instantly is like, oh, it is attainable to have some unhealthy knowledge that might present up in these columns. Or it is attainable that this relationship might exist the place this desk has a overseas key on this desk, however actually, that ought to by no means occur on this specific method of working.

And so then the query grew to become, how can we attempt to stop these items that presently the schema permits however that aren’t legitimate on this specific enterprise area? Will we wish to change the schema in some way and make that stricter or discover some technique to stop it? Will we wish to add some type of validation that can verify some enterprise guidelines first earlier than inserting or updating a document? I am curious, have you ever ever been in a state of affairs like that the place you needed to steadiness these two approaches to implementing enterprise guidelines in your database?

A traditional small instance of it is a state of affairs the place to illustrate, you’ve got a customers’ desk and you’ve got a reputation column on there. And also you wish to make sure that that identify should at all times be current; all customers should have names. Do you attempt to implement that through the schema with a NOT NULL constraint? Or perhaps you attempt to implement that with a validation, perhaps a presence validation on the Rails stage.

Or if you happen to’re actually into SQL, perhaps some fancy set off, however do it in a validation fashion somewhat than making an attempt to drive this utilizing the schema. And our specific situation was slightly bit extra complicated than only one column; it was extra to do with associations. However I feel this kind of downside reveals up even in constraints as small as a required discipline.

STEPHANIE: That is actually fascinating. I feel that, in my expertise, once we are spinning up new tables, at that time, we do attempt to put some intentional thought into what the schema ought to appear like and what necessities we would must encode on the database stage. However issues which are extra complicated would possibly want slightly extra code, like Ruby code. I’ve then pushed to an ActiveRecord validation.

One factor that I feel is necessary to know is that once you do set these issues on the schema, it is tougher to vary. And so that you normally should really feel fairly assured that that is what you need. In any other case, you may run into points later if that does have to vary and making adjustments to no matter current knowledge you may need. However it’s additionally fairly widespread to simply do your greatest when you find yourself deciding on a database schema after which having to make changes down the road as extra about your area.

JOËL: This dialog jogs my memory slightly little bit of the concept of database normalization. I feel that may virtually match as a subset of basic techniques of utilizing the schema to make sure your knowledge is extra right. When you find yourself producing new tables, to illustrate you are making a greenfield app and it’s essential to create 4 or 5 tables; how a lot emphasis do you placed on database normalization once you’re initially designing these?

STEPHANIE: I feel for a greenfield mission when you find yourself setting every little thing up and creating tables to your major area fashions, there’s a side of it that must be thought of since you’re on this distinctive place the place nothing actually is in existence but. And also you do wish to attempt to set your self up to achieve success and hopefully have details about your major use case for this app and might type of make choices concerning the schema then.

Not less than in my expertise, that has been a part of the dialog, although, to be honest, as a result of it is so early, you do have the chance to vary issues with out as a lot effort or ache. However I feel it is value contemplating once you’re simply sitting down and dealing by means of what these fashions are going to appear like.

JOËL: And for our listeners who could not have heard the time period normalization earlier than, it is a collection of…you possibly can consider them as guidelines that you simply apply to your database design to attempt to keep away from knowledge redundancies in your tables. There are completely different ranges of this; they’re sometimes known as regular varieties. So you may see issues like first regular kind, second regular kind, third regular kind; these are type of the flowery phrases for them.

However they typically contain breaking out different tables in order that you do not have knowledge redundancies. And in some ways, that is much like ideas such because the single-responsibility precept that we apply to things once we’re designing our objects in an OO system. However that is extra on the desk stage for databases.

STEPHANIE: I do assume that it’s so arduous, perhaps even inconceivable, to plan one thing out, to not have any of these redundancies, to start with. And I do assume generally they’re a bit inevitable. However I even have had the expertise of getting to determine what the heck I am when I’m querying knowledge and see all these items which are duplicated or perhaps barely completely different.

And yeah, I feel when you find yourself in that place of beginning a greenfield software, it’s actually fascinating to see the way you make these choices about what must be enforced and the place. The place did you find yourself touchdown, or what did you focus on on this dialog with the co-worker?

JOËL: I feel we went with a little bit of a hybrid strategy. Some issues, we are able to use the schema to stop unhealthy knowledge, after which some issues both can’t be represented with a schema, or it is attainable, but it surely’s actually cumbersome and painful. And so, we selected to attempt to implement it with a validation. To me, this feels similar to an issue in typed languages.

So some communities that use loads of sorts attempt to use these sorts to solely permit knowledge to return by means of that is in a legitimate form. And so you may hear issues like make inconceivable states inconceivable or make unlawful states unrepresentable. And that works for a lot of issues, but it surely’s not at all times attainable to implement all your enterprise constraints by means of a schema. Or generally it is attainable however simply not sensible. And so, I feel there’s a steadiness of discovering when you should use the schema or when it is higher to make use of the validation.¬

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I feel my basic rule of thumb is, like I discussed earlier, issues I really feel actually assured about that we wish to make it possible for we’ve in our database or in our knowledge for certain. I do lean in direction of requiring these in a schema, and it additionally communicates that confidence or communicates that intent that it is one thing that at one level was determined is necessary. And so, if a future developer is available in, it could take loads of work for them to jot down a migration, to take away some database constraint. Whereas I feel generally validations on the Rails stage are probably slightly extra open to vary after which much more so if you happen to get to validating on the shopper aspect.

JOËL: That may get to be a very, like, it is a useful gizmo, however one which you could actually harm your self with. In the event you modify your validations on the Rails stage or on the front-end stage, however then you do not backfill these adjustments in your knowledge within the database, then you definately may need data in your database that if you happen to had been to load them into reminiscence and hit save on them once more, would refuse to avoid wasting as a result of they now not match the validations. And on longer-lived functions, I’ve seen that occur generally the place not all rows within the database cross the Rails validations.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I feel I’ve seen that be an issue both for builders who then should backfill that knowledge or write some migration to vary a number of the knowledge to fulfill the brand new necessities, or simply surprising bugs on the customers who uncover one thing new however such as you stated, have been there lengthy sufficient earlier than these issues had been carried out.

JOËL: The extra I consider this, I feel perhaps constraints which are enforced at a validation stage would possibly nonetheless require altering the information in your database. So if you happen to had a constraint enforced through a schema, you do not have a alternative. It’s a must to write some technique to migrate that knowledge in order that it suits the brand new schema. You’ll be able to type of deceive your self with validation and never change the historic knowledge, and generally that’s the case; you wish to preserve the previous knowledge and solely stop new knowledge from being written within the previous format. However if you happen to want consistency, then you definately most likely want an information migration no matter which strategy you’re taking.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, that undoubtedly sounds just like the extra strong technique to go about it for certain.

JOËL: I’ve an article that I wish to reference quite a bit by Hillel Wayne on Constructive Versus Predicative Information, which is principally these two basic approaches to implementing knowledge correctness and formalizing them slightly bit. So do you attempt to implement them primarily based on the development or the form of the entity that you simply’re creating, be {that a} database desk, an object, a sort, one thing like that? Or do you implement it through some type of predicate? In order that could possibly be a validation or different comparable logic that runs type of at runtime to implement your constraints.

STEPHANIE: That is fascinating. I hadn’t heard of these phrases earlier than, however I feel they supply a lens by means of which you’ll be able to take a look at the issue. Did the article find yourself suggesting completely different methods for fixing that downside, or was it extra theoretical in several methods to take a look at it?

JOËL: I feel the article does two issues. First, such as you stated, it offers us the phrases to speak about these approaches. And having these labels now, I begin seeing them all over the place. I see them in databases, I see them in objects, I see them when doing sorts throughout a wide range of languages. In order that’s already an enormous win for me. I feel you and I had accomplished an episode a few months again the place we talked concerning the worth of getting labels to place to concepts. And I feel for me studying that article gave me these two labels. And hastily, it actually helped to make connections that I wasn’t seeing earlier than.

The second factor that the article does is, I feel, discover a number of the limitations that every strategy has and once you would possibly wish to use one versus one other. The constructive strategy, so utilizing a schema, is extra constant as a result of it’s inconceivable for this system to create knowledge that is within the incorrect form. That being stated, not all constraints will be represented in a constructive method, or it could be attainable however actually cumbersome.

Additionally, generally it is probably not invalid knowledge; it is simply kind of undesirable knowledge. So you may want a looser schema. And to illustrate that you simply’re storing some type of intermediate state or some type of uncooked enter from one other system that you simply would possibly wish to layer validations on high of, however you do not wish to reject that knowledge out of your database. You need that kind of incomplete or imperfect knowledge in your system.

One thing that I discover myself doing increasingly more today once I create new tables is to actually lock down the schema as a lot as attainable. I feel that could be opposite to perhaps the best way lots of people locally wish to work. Some folks would possibly desire to start out with a really unfastened schema with no constraints after which work in direction of making issues stricter as they discover the area, and that is type of the default that Rails has. In the event you’re creating a brand new desk, all columns, for instance, are nullable by default.

Personally, I’ll put a null false on each column and each migration that I make until any person could make a convincing case in any other case, and even then, I would strive to think about is there any attainable method that we might keep away from that situation and put that null false. A part of the explanation for that’s that it’s a lot simpler to loosen constraints on current knowledge than to tighten them afterwards. So if I’ve a column the place no worth is allowed to be null, after which afterward we resolve, what? It’s okay for a few of them to be null, I can change the requirement on that column, and I need not make any adjustments to the prevailing knowledge. It simply works.

If the reverse occurs, if I’ve a column that enables a bunch of nulls after which I wish to make that column required, now I’ve to go and discover a technique to backfill all of the empty spots in that column. And that could possibly be a really difficult course of. It would even be inconceivable. There could be some values there that it is identical to, the person didn’t provide them on the time as a result of we did not ask for them. And now there’s nothing we are able to put in there. So do you place in, like, unknown or not out there? Then it’s important to ask your self some actually troublesome questions on your knowledge.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, completely. I feel I agree with you there. One other factor I love to do is present default values for columns, particularly ones the place they can not be null, as a result of, such as you had been saying, that helps me have a greater understanding of simply what’s going on within the database.

A difficulty I’ve seen come up entails a Boolean column the place if a default worth of false, for instance, if that is what we’re going with, shouldn’t be encoded within the schema, you find yourself with probably three values for a Boolean, which might be true, false, and null, and that I feel has been —

JOËL: The notorious three-state Boolean.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, precisely, the three-state downside, which is simply inherently contradictory to what a Boolean is, to start with. And I’ve undoubtedly run into points with that the place it’s important to resolve, or determine, or write code to find out is null false? Is that what we imply right here? It isn’t clear. However if you happen to, such as you stated, locked it down in the beginning, supplied these default values, that places in these guardrails to stop issues from getting out of hand.

JOËL: It additionally makes it simpler for customers of your database, software, no matter to work together along with your code. I’ve run into this quite a bit when working with GraphQL APIs. And the default in lots of GraphQL server implementations is to make all fields nullable by default. Once you construct your schema, it’s important to add some further issues there to say, “This discipline is non-nullable,” which signifies that a shopper that is now consuming it, anytime they take care of the information they should verify, is it current or not? You’ll be able to’t have the arrogance that that knowledge is there. And so it may well drive loads of further checks on the shopper. Or I assume you may simply take it on religion and hope nothing breaks.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, it is humorous you point out that as a result of I undoubtedly assume there’s like spheres of impression. In order a developer, you perhaps begin having to jot down code that checks these sorts of issues, like if it is null or not in your code. Then that may even lengthen to, such as you stated, your customers or shoppers of the API, who then should take care of knowledge that they haven’t any management over. And I have been there too, and that may be irritating as effectively.

JOËL: We have talked quite a bit about knowledge correctness and alternative ways to attain it, completely different methods. Why is that this one thing that we care a lot about?

STEPHANIE: I feel knowledge correctness is actually necessary from a developer expertise perspective. And it is method simpler to repair a bug in your code than it’s to wrangle loads of gathered unhealthy knowledge.

JOËL: Yeah, generally unhealthy knowledge shouldn’t be fixable in any respect, and people are conditions the place you’ve got a very unhealthy day as a developer.


JOËL: Effectively, on that be aware, we could wrap up?

STEPHANIE: Let’s wrap up. Present notes for this episode will be discovered at

JOËL: This present has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore.

STEPHANIE: In the event you loved listening, one very easy technique to assist the present is to depart us a fast ranking or perhaps a overview in iTunes. It actually helps people discover the present.

JOËL: If in case you have any suggestions for this or any of our different episodes, you possibly can attain us @_bikeshed, or you possibly can attain me @joelquen on Twitter.

STEPHANIE: Or attain each of us at through e mail.

JOËL: Thanks a lot for listening to The Bike Shed, and we’ll see you subsequent week.

ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

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